Curse

floppinghog · Nov 21, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I am For Solo-Farming, even though i dont even have a monk primary in pve, i still could farm decently when i was bored on my w/mo. Farming is relaxing and entertaining. It should not be condemned for the reasons given that its too ez, or that it doesn't require skill... what a load of.. You know..

First off, ArenaNet started to be against farming in the respect of "nerfing" or as you should be saying, changed skills. These specific skills altered the way certain builds worked versus farming areas, more specifically the axe monsters in underworld isnt it? (I am ACTUALLY noob when it comes to underworld and FoW because i barely go there, and i have never farmed there successfully). I would have farmed UW/FoW eventually if i had farmed fast enough for gold for the superior runes to begin the investment of it. Not to mention the enjoyment. Grinding IS FUN for some people. Face it. ok thats down, besides skills, there was many gold sinks implented.

Gold sinks. Thats all good and fine, who cares its to be expected but then they go and Now hit the extreme button. Destroy the ability to farm like we used to with either AoE spells or even adjacent spells (AKA such as zealots fire).
What ArenaNet was... doing was, shooting a shotgun from a distance hitting a few parts of farming to try to slow it down, or lightly kill it. But they just slipped and shot their own feet off. This game (PVE side) is stopped dead right now, no one will see the fact that everyone is NOW imbalanced by the gold gain cut short, by these expensive armors which look alright in my opinion (i do not own or want any expensive armors for my characters - its a waste). Let me clearify, We have many gold sinks and all, we have the gold (for now), but once thats gone, we have an impossible market "again" - rune trader days...
I think ArenaNet needs to accept that PVE and PVP can never be connected in the way they wanted. You just can't. Its impossible. Theres no gold in the PVP aspect of things. Unlocking is so much easier in PVP now, and thats good, its finally "fixed". But now we got a problem with PVE its ONLY PvE. No one should be comparing PvE to PvP here.

Me, and like only people here are for farming, and not even because of OMGOMGGOM i need to have more gold than people, its about buying what we want when we want, and for the damn enjoyment of it all. I came from a game where the only way to GO UP the ladder of power is to grind for hours on end. I'm talking experience in the millions (100+million). And monsters give about 100-400 exp each, for a warrior, one at a time, you can picture that.. can't you?
For a mage in that game you could say it was good, but you know what, they were way imbalanced for that game too, they had it hard for the way they had to gather monsters, to even begin to start killing for the experience. Not to mention the potential of having items stolen while your far from your targets casting spells, to have those items drop.

Sigh.

lg5000 · Nov 21, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Hm.. Farming.. it's tedious and boring in most cases.

UW solo farming, well, I haven't tried it.

Drops in general: We need better drops to fall while in a team with people, it would encourage teaming with others and going solo less often. Not sure if it can be changed though.

UW parties: Well, just spend some time down there yesterday (and got someone a spider) and.. between the two attempts at it, it only paid for going down once (as in, the person who paid managed to make 1p back over the two trips) No ecto, two chests with purples one with gold, no gold drops.

Now, with that being the picture, why would anyone want to go UW? Especially when you can do it alone and that way it'll actually pay for the trip and a bit more?

I understand it got completly nerved, but had hoped that it only got nerved for the solo farmers, not for the casual players wanting to have some fun.

The other thing which dissapointed me was on the first trip we had not 1 but 2 solo monks who sabotaged, one dying shortly after. Was after that that I came to the conclusion that as long as i have a say in the team, no Mo/W will join it if we're going UW and most definatly no blind inviting Mo/W!

So yeah, while I prefer playing the game rather than farm, farming I can do if I have about 5-10 mins spare, or if no-one is online to group up with.

Roza · Nov 21, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Neutral. I don't like solo-farming much, but if people want to do it, I am fine with it. It should not be the focus of gameplay for the devs, but if people have finished the pve game and have little to aim for asside from getting more items and gold, it is only natural that they will farm. And farming solo is simply more profitable. If there was a better way to get gold, people would do that.

Pitty it is hard to get the 60K armours without solo farming. Gold sink = grind, here, in my opinion.

krnkrackmonkey · Nov 21, 2005, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Neutral too. I have nothing against people who solo farm, its their decision. I don't see why people complain about solo farmers. In truth, solo farming in UW for example requires a lot of skill and timing, especially with all the nerfing the Anet has been doing, so i think they deserve their drops. As for me, i would rather pvp/gvg or do some random quest than farm. Money isnt that big a deal for me, and solo farming tends to get a little tedious.

Just my 2 cents ^^

Pompeyfan · Nov 21, 2005, 03:57 AM // 03:57

I used to be against solo farming mainly because it was the reason Anet nerfed the drops to their current pitiful state which affects everyone, but I do now think that solo farming should be allowed, if only because some people enjoy the challange and prefer questing alone.

What I would like to see though is drops targeted at the number in the group. Take the UW as an example, Ecto drops are now pitiful and if one does drop you only have a 1 in 8 chance of being allocatted it if in a group, and quite frequently the same 1 or 2 people will get allocatted 2 oir 3 each and the rest none - I would like it changed so that if an ecto is dropped, then everyone in the group gets one - so a solo farmer gets 1, 5 man trappers get 5 for 1` each, and 8 man team gets 8 - this piuts no-one at a disadvantage in how they like to play to game, it shouldn't even be that hard to implement as quest items are already allocatted this way, with enough being droipped for each party member.

T1Cybernetic · Nov 21, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Neutral also!

Im just happy playing the game how i like to play it "For Fun"

I farm alot with all my characters in various places "in some form or other"
but reading this thread a large percentage are all for farming because like
myself we have complated the game and all quests, skills, rewards etc.

And it really does get a little "annoying?" forgive my wording it's 4am here,
playing all those quests and missions over and over again, ...

"EDIT"
There was alot more here "honest" but i didnt want to rant, ...

"EDIT 2"
Typing errors.

Roza · Nov 21, 2005, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

What I would like to see though is drops targeted at the number in the group. Take the UW as an example, Ecto drops are now pitiful and if one does drop you only have a 1 in 8 chance of being allocatted it if in a group, and quite frequently the same 1 or 2 people will get allocatted 2 oir 3 each and the rest none - I would like it changed so that if an ecto is dropped, then everyone in the group gets one - so a solo farmer gets 1, 5 man trappers get 5 for 1` each, and 8 man team gets 8 - this piuts no-one at a disadvantage in how they like to play to game, it shouldn't even be that hard to implement as quest items are already allocatted this way, with enough being droipped for each party member.

This is an interesting point and I do hope someone form Anet will read this thread (assuming they have not heard or thought of this before). This would make farming/playing with a group (as Anet intended it) or even farming with henchmen more profitable. I am not sure that drops should be 8 times that of a solo-farmer for a group of 8, but right now drops for a solo farmer are 8 times that of a group of 8, as they have to devide the loot, though soloing is of course a lot slower. Maybe Anet should make this 1/4, so that a solo monk will get less drops per kill (but still sufficient to make it an interesting option). Anet can increase the rate of gold and item drops in general then.

But maybe I am wrong and this is a terrible idea.

Banebow · Nov 21, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Wow. Lots of folks for or neutral, looks like it is time to be part of the small crowd again.

I am against solo farming.

Yes, I have solo-farmed griffons with a W/Mo build I took of this forum. It took me about a day to become skilled enough with it to farm safely, without risking death. I could make enough gold in an hour and a half to purchase an ectoplasm. It sometimes would take me a week to make the same amount of gold before I started farming. Sometimes much longer.

So why am I against it? Because, in my mind, this is a skill-oriented game. Farming is based much more on time spent than skill. The people who first used solo monks needed skill to come up with the build, and I am not saying that farming takes no skill, but once the build is out, it is all based on how much free time you have (witness my W/Mo farming "skill"

)

But the problem lies not in the solo farmers. The problem lies in the need to farm. It was a mistake to place items in this game the demand farming. Yes, these items are all armor, and no, you do not need them. That is not the point. People will always be driven to attain the highest level of gear possible. By not placing a reasonable cap on trader prices, the solo farmers become the controllers of the economy. They could, if they wished, dictate the price of any item in the game. They do on some items (think: ectoplasms) This forces new players to farm, so that they can purchase items.

Numerous "fixes" spring to mind. One would be gold rewards for quests. ANet already did this for low-level quests, yet they did not bring this to the quests were you have to work at it. The problem with this idea is it harms people who have already done the quests, unless the quests are reset, or you can pick up the gold now, even though you did the quest 3 months ago. If you think this will destroy the economy, I say it can't get much worse for someone who does not farm, since the farmers currently have control of market prices.

An earlier suggestion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pompeyfan

What I would like to see though is drops targeted at the number in the group. Take the UW as an example, Ecto drops are now pitiful and if one does drop you only have a 1 in 8 chance of being allocatted it if in a group, and quite frequently the same 1 or 2 people will get allocatted 2 oir 3 each and the rest none - I would like it changed so that if an ecto is dropped, then everyone in the group gets one - so a solo farmer gets 1, 5 man trappers get 5 for 1` each, and 8 man team gets 8 - this piuts no-one at a disadvantage in how they like to play to game, it shouldn't even be that hard to implement as quest items are already allocatted this way, with enough being droipped for each party member.

The only problem I see with this idea is that, if a guild group of 8 people went down to UW and they all got two ectoplasm drops, you could pool them and pick up a piece of fissure armor (minus shards). In one run. I am all for more drops, but not drops that happen so often the item becomes worthless.

Now, I don't want to come across as saying "remove all solo farmers, make it so you can't solo areas". I sometimes feel like heading out on my mesmer and killing a few things, making a (very small) bit of cash. Sometimes I just want to do a quest by myself, to see if I actually can. But the return for "going it alone" should not be 8 times better than if you were in a group. You will notice that most people only bother with groups now to get from one area to another, or to finish a quest they could not solo. But they only do those quests because they need something it gives or unlocks (everyone knows you only get a group for Orozar because you need to finish him for FA) I would be very much a happy man if SF quests gave, say, gold rewards (in addition to the experience rewards) because I would then not only have a reason to do these quests again, but the desire to do them again as well.

Guardian of the Light · Nov 21, 2005, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

Wow. Lots of folks for or neutral, looks like it is time to be part of the small crowd again.

I am against solo farming.

Yes, I have solo-farmed griffons with a W/Mo build I took of this forum. It took me about a day to become skilled enough with it to farm safely, without risking death. I could make enough gold in an hour and a half to purchase an ectoplasm. It sometimes would take me a week to make the same amount of gold before I started farming. Sometimes much longer.

So why am I against it? Because, in my mind, this is a skill-oriented game. Farming is based much more on time spent than skill. The people who first used solo monks needed skill to come up with the build, and I am not saying that farming takes no skill, but once the build is out, it is all based on how much free time you have (witness my W/Mo farming "skill"

)

But the problem lies not in the solo farmers. The problem lies in the need to farm. It was a mistake to place items in this game the demand farming. Yes, these items are all armor, and no, you do not need them. That is not the point. People will always be driven to attain the highest level of gear possible. By not placing a reasonable cap on trader prices, the solo farmers become the controllers of the economy. They could, if they wished, dictate the price of any item in the game. They do on some items (think: ectoplasms) This forces new players to farm, so that they can purchase items.

Numerous "fixes" spring to mind. One would be gold rewards for quests. ANet already did this for low-level quests, yet they did not bring this to the quests were you have to work at it. The problem with this idea is it harms people who have already done the quests, unless the quests are reset, or you can pick up the gold now, even though you did the quest 3 months ago. If you think this will destroy the economy, I say it can't get much worse for someone who does not farm, since the farmers currently have control of market prices.

An earlier suggestion:
The only problem I see with this idea is that, if a guild group of 8 people went down to UW and they all got two ectoplasm drops, you could pool them and pick up a piece of fissure armor (minus shards). In one run. I am all for more drops, but not drops that happen so often the item becomes worthless.

Now, I don't want to come across as saying "remove all solo farmers, make it so you can't solo areas". I sometimes feel like heading out on my mesmer and killing a few things, making a (very small) bit of cash. Sometimes I just want to do a quest by myself, to see if I actually can. But the return for "going it alone" should not be 8 times better than if you were in a group. You will notice that most people only bother with groups now to get from one area to another, or to finish a quest they could not solo. But they only do those quests because they need something it gives or unlocks (everyone knows you only get a group for Orozar because you need to finish him for FA) I would be very much a happy man if SF quests gave, say, gold rewards (in addition to the experience rewards) because I would then not only have a reason to do these quests again, but the desire to do them again as well.

You've made some good points but I will have to counter your arguements.

Don't forget that solo-farming starts in the desert but later some guys think "hmm lets take this to the next level" and challeged areas with smarter of ememies. Some after try to take on drakes or hydras which are more challeging to work this because they have greater spells. I myself tried to harvest the gwawl outside of portsledge it almost worked too.

Also solo-farming DECREASES the amount of time that you need to take in order to get certain items. This could be agrued that it increases prices however farming also increases supply.

Farmer 1 wants a 10/10 suldering sword with a +30 health mod
Farmer 2 has a 10/10 Suldering Sword but with no Health mod
Farmer 3 has a +30 Health mod for a sword
Farmer 1 buys the stuff from farmer 2 and 3.

Farmers 2 and 3 buy other stuff from other people

This creates a situation in which players get what they want sooner and creates a healthy economy. But looks what happens when farming is destoyed.

Farmer 1 doesn't have the money for a 10/10 suldering sword with a +30 Health Mod.
Farmer 2 and 3 don't get the extra money from selling they're mods
Farmer 1, 2 and 3 get sad that they don't have the stuff they want

Farmers 1, 2 and 3 Quit playing Guild Wars

Banebow · Nov 21, 2005, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Farmer 1 wants a 10/10 suldering sword with a +30 health mod
Farmer 2 has a 10/10 Suldering Sword but with no Health mod
Farmer 3 has a +30 Health mod for a sword
Farmer 1 buys the stuff from farmer 2 and 3.

The problem with this example is that they are all farmers. Quester 4 can't buy the +30 health mod because farmer 1 easily out-bids him. Quester 4 then becomes farmer 4, and the game loses another player interisted in quests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

This creates a situation in which players get what they want sooner and creates a healthy economy

Except, of course, for those who don't farm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guardian of the Light

Don't forget that solo-farming starts in the desert but later some guys think "hmm lets take this to the next level" and challeged areas with smarter of ememies. Some after try to take on drakes or hydras which are more challeging to work this because they have greater spells. I myself tried to harvest the gwawl outside of portsledge it almost worked too.

As I said, I have nothing against players who want to try and solo high level areas, or, if not high level, difficult with their class. I have something against it being the way to earn money.

DarkSider84 · Nov 21, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I am for solo farming, this is the utmost skill to be able to go in a hard area (like SF-fa or UW) and farm it by yourself. Someone must be able to make their character the very best it possibly can, and not always just a load of damage at one time, but being able to stay alive that whole time and successfully farm that location, thats skill. I agree with guardian of the light with the whole supply & demand for items and also bringing higher quality items to the economy, along with keeping a balanced trade system. But going against what you said, I am all for invisimonk, i personally use mine all the time, i see nothing wrong with it, its easy...but not that easy with the recent aoe updates. That in a sense nerfed a good chunk of the "newer" players from trying the build or successfully using the build. Takes patience and skill along with timing and energy management (heavily).

Anyhow, to sum it up, i am for solo farming, its good in all of the above stated ways (imo).

PieXags · Nov 21, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I'm for it, so long as it's not in a spot that guarantees you'll be one of the richest peoples in GW (like UW farming used to be, and still is in a sense.)

If it's honest farming tengu, ettins, ring of fire, trolls, whatever, I'm all for it. However you can make a good buck. It's the only way I can buy a black dye every now and then.

Guardian of the Light · Nov 21, 2005, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

The problem with this example is that they are all farmers. Quester 4 can't buy the +30 health mod because farmer 1 easily out-bids him. Quester 4 then becomes farmer 4, and the game loses another player interisted in quests.

Except, of course, for those who don't farm

As I said, I have nothing against players who want to try and solo high level areas, or, if not high level, difficult with their class. I have something against it being the way to earn money.

Well I would agreed then that Questing should have some gold in certain quests like glint should say "You have successlly defended drokar's forge heres 10k". Don't forget that solo-farming isn't the only method of getting money another one is Running and Running is an unbeatable oppenent. As long as someone eventually gets money to spend runners will have use in some low level places.

If they were some quests that gave you 10k or something then a balance would be acieved and Runners, Farmers, and Questers would all have want they wanted.

I'd suggest this is Staduim but its already suggested I think.

Lugosi · Nov 21, 2005, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I don't mind farming, except if...

the solo-strategy is like what I, three more guildies and two more people got involved in today.
We were forming a group for a quest in TOA, announcing that we were going to do this quest, and that we needed two monks for it.
After a while two monks joined (both Mo/W20), first one, then after a little while the other.
Both had rather...umm...strange names, and one of them kept spamming the teamchat with "100% love you" for no reason.

The team was full, so we headed out. That was when the teamchat-spamming monk typed "?????" and went back into TOA. There he kept typing "wait" a few times, and suddenly we were all loading into UW.

We all pretty much died in less than a minute (since none of us was prepared for UW), except of the second monk that had joined our team - he started farming. And of course he didn't have a res - pretty useful if you need an excuse for why you're waiting for the drops to become public. Anyway, he just continued his farming and we all mapped out.

This was the second time our team got hijacked into UW within 15 minutes. The first time it had been a Warrior who obviously wasn't as skilled, since he died in less than a minute too. Nevertheless he was persistent - once we had loaded back into TOA we were already loading back into UW. So we mapped out to a different district of TOA, formed a new team, and that's where the Farm-monk(s) joined us.

So yes, generally I don't mind farming, but team-hijack-farming (for more or better drops) like this is something I can't tolerate at all.

Roza · Nov 21, 2005, 06:02 AM // 06:02

I pretty much agree with everything Banebow said, though I said I was neutral when it comes to solo farming. I don't mind some people doing it, but it is a pitty that this is by far the most profitable activity. Some activity will always be the most profitable, but the difference should not be so significant, I think. Pompeyfan's suggestion (in a less radical form) may present a simple way to balance this a little. Gold rewards would be as well (I had no idea that you get gold for pve missions at the start now. That is good).

Quote:

Farmer 1 doesn't have the money for a 10/10 suldering sword with a +30 Health Mod.
Farmer 2 and 3 don't get the extra money from selling they're mods
Farmer 1, 2 and 3 get sad that they don't have the stuff they want
Farmers 1, 2 and 3 Quit playing Guild Wars

I have made this point before: less farming means both fewer items and less gold. Farmers are the greatest source of items and gold flowing into the GW economy. Fewer items means higher prices for items, all else being equal. Less gold means fewer people around able to buy items at that high price. Less demand at a high price means prices will drop. Lower prices means being able to buy more for an x amount of gold. So, this really balances out, meaning that people can still trade and get the items they want. People will just have less gold in their pockets and there will be fewer perfect items in storage for most players, which will not make a big difference really.

The only problem with that is that 60K (and of course fissure) armour will be harder to obtain. If they halved the prices for that, I would certainly be happy.

Rezyk · Nov 21, 2005, 06:30 AM // 06:30

I'm against solo farming being easily more efficient than team farming, because the detrimental effects of penalizing teamplay to such a large degree greatly outweighs the benefits to solo play.

Numa Pompilius · Nov 21, 2005, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Who the hell needs a 10/10 sundering +30 weapon? It has no advantage over a weapon costing <1/10th as much other than bragging rights.
And people can't even see the difference, you have to really start bragging about it to get any value for your money.
Anyone actually upset over not being able to afford such a weapon *and* not settling for a green, is just being silly.
IF you can afford it and want one, then buy it, but people complaining about not being able to just annoy me.

One could even argue that even these weapons wouldn't cost much if it wasn't for farming. There'd be fewer around, yes, but there wouldn't be bored farmers with millions in gold and nothing to spend it on either.

Vel Satis · Nov 21, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

For with a caveat. I agree with solo farming but not for the top level areas like UW or FoW.

My solution for those areas would be to have phantom (simulated) henchies, i.e. hidden henchies that you can't see, that do nothing and really only exist in the mind of the server. That way, if you enter alone, the server still thinks you have a group of eight, if there are only 5 of you, the server thinks you have a group of eight. This means equal drops for all parties entering these areas and if drop rate is an issue then they can raise it without fear of anyone exploiting it.

RedHorn · Nov 21, 2005, 08:20 AM // 08:20

I agree with solo-farming but not in UW and FoW. They shouldnt change what was already in the game from the beginning. I mean people that have stuck through it from the beginning are the ones being hurt not the new people joining on. I think those are the people that hate solo-farming simply for the fact that they cant. Yes, this is a game where you fight with a team. People see soloing places a greedy way of getting godly items. Then they complain about how much the items cost. Well I cant afford all godly items(most as a matter of fact) but I still think it is good for those people who get the drops.

As for the UW and FoW I think these places shouldn't be able to solo. Anet has done a pretty good job so far on working on that by making much harder. They have also added a nice touch by increasing rare drops in missions which increases people helping out the newer players that need it. Granted people can just farm missions but I find it more fun to help people out on my quest for items.
My pholosophy is "Give a little, get a little." And isnt karma something? lol well those are my two cents.... ready.... set...... flame!! lol

FrogDevourer · Nov 21, 2005, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Even if I get bored of farming very quickly, I can understand that other players may appreciate this mind-numbing gambling process (do X then Y, get loot hoping to get super ubber item Z, rinse and repeat until exhaustion). It's just a basic slot machine addiction.

The crappy loot in many places initially comes from solo farming (and especially in the UW which used to be generous). Every drop in this game is balanced for a full team. Solo farmers screw up this balance because they receive 8 times more loot than standard players. As a result inflation kicks in and it hits everybody (and especially non-farmers). As a result, drop rates are reduced everywhere, which hits all players and especially casual players who can't keep up with the insane prices.

Farming should remain profitable but not disgustingly profitable. Solo-farming with 8x standard loot is simply not acceptable in the long run. Screwing up the whole 'economy' (and especially for the average player who can't compete with solo farmers) is assuredly not the best way to reward a farmer for using a stupid copy/pasted build and for killing 2345 zillion times the same monster.

A good solution would be an auto-balance of the drop rate / party size ratio, but for some reason it won't be implemented by ANet.